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Real Talk: Community Discussion v.4
Let's talk about how we feel!

14360
Name Player
Ophelia Laroche Fao Staff
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Hi guys!

This is our fourth REAL TALK thread and we want to hear from YOU in total transparency. Please don’t misunderstand this for a platform to bring negativity in because we all know that can snowball fast.

But we want to hear from our member base what we as a staff team can do to make you feel more included, more in the loop, more engaged on the site. How staff can be more helpful to you or easier to approach. What we as a SITE can work on to make things feel more like home, more fun, more safe.

If you have suggestions, we’d love them! If you have questions, we’re here to answer them as best we can, as normal people and as staff. And if you have concerns, this is certainly the place to floor them. Just please be mindful of tone because we want this to be a safe place to voice yourself, not an environment that fosters underhanded negativity.

That said, please feel free to PM any of the staff team with any concerns that you feel might not be best suited here. We want to hear everything, so if it’s better left private, you have that option as well. Concerns directed as singular individuals or specific instances are better handled directly with Staff.  The aim here is not to make anyone feel badly!

We love you all and we love Horizon, so we just want to make sure today, tomorrow, five years from now, that we’re doing our best to make this a place you look forward to logging into.

So without further ado,
Things brought up in the last Real Talk thread:

FIXED
Embed Discord on site — Have done!

PLANS TO FIX
Females going into heat and activity concerns — We hear you! This will probably be discussed in heavier detail when we approach that time next year, so we don’t have any definite answers for now, but we will be making tweaks to avoid capturing innocent bystanders!
Females with multiple mating partners having several pups from different fathers — We will discuss this for next year, but no promises!
Rounds before entering a fight — While our fighting guide does cover this, we are looking into making it a bit more firm of a rule!
Suggestions thread — For now there is a suggestions channel in Discord! We will look into making a thread for it as well.

NOT FIXING FOR NOW
Event chats moving from Skype to Discord — For the time being, we’re sticking to Skype for video chat purposes! If this ever changes, we will let you know.
Clarify pregnancy/puppy timelines — As they are just guidelines, we anticipate you guys can adjust for our slight time acceleration yourselves!
Change no OOC planning rules — We feel these are very clear and they will not be changing. If you are ever confused, feel free to ask!
Replace Skill Points on the mini-profile with IC Posts — Interesting idea, not sure if we can implement. May be Chels only.


Sep 04, 2018 02:03 PM

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228474
Name Player
Freyar Gabriel Lucas
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None yet!
 

I just wanted to mention that discord has a video chat feature too : 0


Sep 04, 2018 03:35 PM — Post #1

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229105
Name Player
Asa CJ
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None yet!
 

For the sake of transparency (as that is what this is for) this is in regards to my previous attempts at rule consistency:

If wolves previously belonging to packs need to be reaccepted IC when returning from Inactive state, why was Pace placed back into her pack with her old rank before any IC meeting?

Thanks in advance for any information. If this rule is changing please let us know.

Edit: for reference, from the wiki:

“When a pack wolf falls Inactive, his account loses its rank and position. This may not mean he is forbidden from reentering the pack, but like everything else, all consequences for disappearance are determined In Character. Other characters may have reactions to your wolf’s absence or return.”

Previously players needed to link a “joining thread” with their characters returning to the pack IC; Pace has returned without such. Though this involves a “single instance” it contiues my urge for rule consistency. It just confuses me and I want to understand the wiki but the examples I see are not consistent.


Sep 09, 2018 12:02 AM — Post #2

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[ Edited: Sep 09, 2018 12:20 AM by Asa ]
229106
Name Player
Meir dom
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1year 2mos 6mos 100ooc 100posts 250posts 500posts 1000posts artist helper lonelythreads otm profile welcomeguide wikicontributor
 

re:pace—sometimes when accounts fall inactive, they sometimes keep the pack and rank on the profile. but if you check the silu tribe page, pace isn’t actually on there. this has happened to meir—when i reactivated him when i rejoined the site, he still had his fellowship (an inactive pack at the time!) rank and colour on his profile where rogue should be. i don’t think that’s a rule inconsistency thing, more of a keeping up to date thing or something. for meir, i just let staff know and they fixed it up.


Sep 09, 2018 12:26 AM — Post #3

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229107
Name Player
Asa CJ
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None yet!
 

Oh interesting, that’s weird, thanks for the information; if you caught it then the staff that reactivated Pace should have caught it and fixed it, or it should have been reported like you did with Meir if they were unable to edit that themselves. If it’s just a weird thing like that then it still needs to be corrected to reflect fairness. Thanks for that info though, that clears up a bit of it!


Sep 09, 2018 12:35 AM — Post #4

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229115
Name Player
Meir dom
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1year 2mos 6mos 100ooc 100posts 250posts 500posts 1000posts artist helper lonelythreads otm profile welcomeguide wikicontributor
 

yeah, definitely.

i wonder if there’s some way that wolves that do fall inactive can automatically have their pack removed/switched back to rogue or something? is there any way to implement that, or is that a chels thing, or maybe even not possible, haha.

i don’t know if it’d have to be done manually to the wolves that did fall inactive, which i know would be a fairly demanding task to do, but it’d avoid wolves rejoining with pack ranks and having that confusion in the future, maybe, if there’s some way to get it done?


Sep 09, 2018 02:28 AM — Post #5

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229117
Name Player
Asa CJ
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None yet!
 

We have something like that on Origin and it’s in our PHP files, so probably a Chels thing. I don’t think anyone has access to edit those.

I think something that helps is posting for reactivations too (checks character name and stuff on their miniprofs and color before heading IC), maybe staff just don’t do their own characters as an added layer of checks? I dunno, since everyone else can’t and it’s an easy way to catch it for normal folk.

Just noticed Pace in the online list and was confused on it, but if the error is internal then it would have to be caught and corrected regardless.


Sep 09, 2018 03:01 AM — Post #6

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229120
Name Player
Meir dom
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1year 2mos 6mos 100ooc 100posts 250posts 500posts 1000posts artist helper lonelythreads otm profile welcomeguide wikicontributor
 

true, true! makes total sense tbh. it’s normally caught pretty quickly from what i’ve seen so far, honestly.


Sep 09, 2018 03:42 AM — Post #7

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229161
Name Player
Ophelia Laroche Fao Staff
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First of all, reminder in general!

Concerns directed at singular individuals or specific instances are better handled directly with Staff.  The aim here is not to make anyone feel badly!

As this most certainly is a case of that, I would ask again that you keep this in mind in the future. While I know you’re saying it’s a matter of rule consistency, that is something we actively address all the time.  This is not a place to call people out. I know it can be difficult when the person you feel being unfair is Staff, but you are welcome to reach out to other Staff directly on the matter in order to try and get an unbiased explanation.

First of all: yes, rank updates and the like are all manual, but such is not what happened here! (Though often such is the case, if the character wasn’t reset when they went inactive and we just missed it.)

For sake of total transparency, Pace’s situation is somewhat unprecedented as far as I can recall. First of all, the actual rule statement is this: 

When a pack wolf falls Inactive, his account loses its rank and position. This may not mean he is forbidden from reentering the pack, but like everything else, all consequences for disappearance are determined In Character. Other characters may have reactions to your wolf’s absence or return.

When I brought Pace back, I made a point of asking Chris if Yuna still considered Pace the leader on an IC level. The answer was an undoubted yes.  Even in IC narration and the like, Yuna has always anticipated Pace’s return and has never considered herself the actual leader in her place, etc.

Indeed, if you look at the pack page, the Leader/Halcyon spot is still open, and the flavor text indicates it as being held specifically for this potential return.  (And before anyone cries OOC planning, no one knew Pace would actually come back. It was all IC.  Even I didn’t know Pace was going to come back until about an hour before I reactivated her.)

So, yeah, it’s an odd situation where IC Pace is still Halcyon, and that’s justified In Character. If Yuna had called herself leader or someone else had come and taken over or something or things had otherwise moved on by now, Pace absolutely would have lost her title and would have to deal with it upon her pending return.

For future reference: if there is an anticipation of a wolf’s return as established IC (this may be more difficult for a wolf who has fallen inactive in an activity check), and no case of things having changed to such a degree that it would render the assumption null, then we are willing to consider giving a wolf back pack and rank before a ‘hello I’m back’ thread.

While a ‘rejoining’ thread is kind of the standard that’s only because it’s the most straightforward confirmation, and it’s not actually in the rules.  However, we may add to the rules a little in this, because I personally don’t believe wolves should count towards pack totals until they meet up face to face again (which is why I haven’t added Pace back to the pack page yet!)  This is something I’ll be discussing with the others.


Sep 09, 2018 01:18 PM — Post #8

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[ Edited: Sep 09, 2018 01:24 PM by Ophelia ]
229195
Name Player
Asa CJ
Achievements (?)
None yet!
 

Thank you for being honest and forward with your answer. I knew it was a case of “single individual” and even stated that I did, but if we have to follow rules stated in the wiki that (I, myself) feel are somehow being overlooked or somehow dismissed by staff players then it doesn’t feel fair to only address it privately where nobody else gets answers, people that may have the same questions but are afraid to speak up or are too anxious. As an admin myself with a playerbase, I don’t mind seeking the answers in the open for others possibly concerned; and I appreciate you explaining Pace’s situation here with the information that you did. :)


After reading it over a bit, can you clarify some points on IC narration and why that hasn’t influenced other characters before? Such as previous returning pack wolves (that had been IC narrated that they had intended to return), or other situations such as the Concord who IC narrated pack status and was refused solely based on one member’s post count; and to clarify, we were not going to play Tunglid as Council until an OOC influence of 250 posts was achieved. (?) Morwen was the lead founding member and she was to lead by herself if anything, this was even established IC narratively.

Even if Pace is considered returning by her pack she does not know that, only you do.


Sep 09, 2018 08:25 PM — Post #9

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[ Edited: Sep 09, 2018 08:46 PM by Asa ]
229205
Laura is currently Inactive. Activate? Inactive
Name Player
Laura Dunn Jill
 

I believe what CJ is addressing is, indeed, a matter of consistency. For example, when I marked Laura inactive (not a wolf made inactive through activity checks, as Fao mentioned), she was stripped of her “Brother” rank.

Shortly after, a staffer contacted me to ask what my plans were with her, so we could work things out on an IC level. I said she could have been off visiting her parents, and would possibly return soon. I even discussed this with the pack leader’s player, too, who said the leader would not consider Laura any differently while she was away. A few days later, I did, in fact, bring Laura back!

Yet she was not given her rank back, despite being inactive for two days. I was told I had to play her out as seeking out her pack again, to earn the rank she held in the past—even though both her packmate and her leader very much anticipated her return. (If the players involved see this, feel free to let me know if I misinterpreted your messages, however! That’s entirely possible!)

Having experienced this rule personally, admittedly, I found it curious that Pace was part of the Tribe still, despite these rules being in place. Any wolf that fell into that category would have caught my attention, though!

I thank you for your explanations thus far, and have been eagerly watching this development to see its resolution. :)


Sep 09, 2018 09:16 PM — Post #10

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[ Edited: Sep 09, 2018 09:20 PM by Laura ]
229206
Name Player
Pace Aekyr Fao Staff
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Hey, first of all Jill, to ya—if you ever feel like something was previously overlooked like this, I’m always here to chat with! <3

In Laura’s cause, it honestly sounds like a case of ‘standard practice’ taking over what logically should have been giving Laura her rank back, etc.  As it’s not really a common thing for it to be this way, we haven’t ever discussed it any detail as staff, so it was and oversight. Sorry about that!

In the future we are completely willing to look at a situation and decide whether or not the rank/pack can be granted again immediately upon return. We’ll require proof and probably word from the pack leader on the current state of thinking, but it’s definitely not intended to be a ‘this case only, deal.’ It was just a lot more obvious with Pace because of the position ‘held’ for her on the pack page and Yuna’s occasional thoughts on the matter, etc.

Hope that clears things up!


Sep 09, 2018 09:48 PM — Post #11

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229208
Name Player
Pace Aekyr Fao Staff
Achievements (?)
1year 2mos 6mos 100ooc 100posts 250posts 500posts anniversary1 betatester helper lonelythreads ny2015 otm profile welcomeguide wikicontributor
 

And CJ, I feel like to a degree you’re missing my point. I’m not going to address the Pace situation because I feel like it’s already been pretty thoroughly painted, especially with the addition of what I just said to Jill!

Your other point, about Tunglid and the 250 post count requirement, has also been explained to the people involved on several occasions, and is an entirely different matter. If you are still confused by it, please allow me to explain:

The requirements state—The wolf (or wolves) who will be in the leading rank has at least 250 IC posts.

As the council wolves of the new SC are all of the same leading rank, they must all have 250 posts. This is to ensure that all ‘leadership’ positions are filled by a wolf with sufficient screen time in order to have the influence, etc.  Yes, it’s an OOC thing that plays on IC stuff, which is sometimes a bit of a bummer, but without rules and requirements everything would be pandemonium. We like to give as much freedom as we can, but there has to be a certain degree of order/expectation, or anything could happen and we’d have 25 packs and a thousand puppies.

When there was a suggestion during this process that Tunglid step down to a lower rank temporarily, we denied the request because that is definitely OOC influence on an IC situation. Having Tunglid stay in a lower rank until some invisible threshold was reached went against what was already established to our knowledge.

At any rate, Tunglid reached the number reasonably quickly and the pack is now official, so all should be well.


Sep 09, 2018 10:01 PM — Post #12

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229210
Laura is currently Inactive. Activate? Inactive
Name Player
Laura Dunn Jill
 

Oh I should have said!! It’s not that I minded playing out her receiving her rank again. My understanding very much was that that was protocol, so I am not sure I’d even consider it oversight! :) I was simply confused about how it could have been handled in a manner similar to the one we’re touching on, since I couldn’t recall reading that being ‘standardized’ anywhere in the wiki, etc. Would I have liked her to keep her rank? Sure! But she’s back now, and it’s all chill.

I’ll be doing my best to keep my wolves in the valley now (so this won’t be an issue hehe), but it’s nice to know you all will keep your minds open for others who may come along and find themselves in the same position! I realize it can be a bummer to have one thing happening IC, only to have to go about it earning it back in an OOC(ish?) way. (That might not have even made sense. o__o)

Thanks for your super quick reply (as always) to give some clarification!! :) <3


Sep 09, 2018 10:34 PM — Post #13

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229223
Name Player
Bucky Rangers Chris Staff
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For what it’s worth I would have been 100% okay with Laura keeping her rank in her instance! Given that it was cleared oocly where she had ‘been’ while inactive and she was away a reasonable amount of time for that. So I’d be all for instances such as this where things are clear cut, eg, where the pack/leaders still all agree a “missing” inactive member is a pack wolf they could easily still be a pack wolf without needing to ‘rejoin’. I had this recently with a Ranger as well where the character approached Bucky to check they were still a pack member, even though they had been inactive, Bucky still considered them that way ICly. So that was a ‘rejoining’ in that instance. 

I still think pack tables ought to be handled in the current fashion. So an inactive wolf away from home doesn’t count towards pack totals because otherwise it would be major confusion! 

Also guys, for the sake of any new members or just to reiterate - while all staff members are happy to be approached at any time, personally my main motivation for becoming staff was to help sort out any issues people are having. This is as true then as it was now, so for all those of you who have brought concerns and questions to me lately - an emphatic thank you! And let me assure you there is no need to apologize to me or any other staffer for asking for help, no issue is too big or small. If you’re concerned, I’m concerned! 

So yes, hit me up here on PM, on my discord or facebook messenger, ANYTIME, I know my weird Aussie timezone makes things difficult some times but I assure you that I will see and respond ASAP to any concern brought forwards :)


Sep 10, 2018 12:39 AM — Post #14

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229240
Name Player
Asa CJ
Achievements (?)
None yet!
 

That’s fine, Fao. I think you may have missed the idea of my IC narration question, so perhaps a misunderstanding both ways :S As I already agreed to no longer discuss this particular conversation on an open forum I will regard the idea of a rule changes or updates being clarified before being put into practice; for example, in this case. If you guys are planning on discussing and allowing this leniency with pack wolves returning, or any other future possible change of some kind, it would be beneficial and likely avoid confusion if you announced such a thing first before just doing it without any sort of notice. Otherwise it feels convoluted and strange when trying to find answers and clarifications about the rules only to learn they were kinda being discussed already or were tolerated as exceptions, etc.—but knowing beforehand would help heaps!

Thanks for your support and continued information!


Sep 10, 2018 04:36 AM — Post #15

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